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Post by gravityjim on Feb 21, 2016 9:15:52 GMT -8
More than mildly disappointed with the problems in the 3.02 software for Digital Performer, I started doing some research, and was surprised to find that the approach to creating a Raven Mixer for, say, Logic Pro, is very different.... the Raven Mixer in Logic is an overlay of the DAW's own mixer (giving you access to everything in the mixer window), rather than a built-from scratch "analog" like the DP Raven Mixer.
Why is this? Why can't DP use that approach (I am assuming, of course, that you would have done in DP what you've always done if it had been possible)?
I own Logic Pro X, and could easily use it as my primary DAW... although I vastly prefer DP and finally bought the MTi2 because of the DP announcement.
WHat's the problem, here? I could really use an explanation.
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Post by jameyz on Feb 21, 2016 9:29:26 GMT -8
Hi Jim, Thanks for posting, and I am sorry for your disappointment.
Logic has been out for 2 years now, and when it was first released there was no "internal mixer". Ableton also doesn't have an "internal mixer" so it is quite similar to DP in this regard.
The problem with building an "Internal mixer overlay" for DP is the issue that DP Mix window view changes with every insert and send you add, so it is very hard to find a solution for the overlay that will work consistently. But, the great thing about Raven and and touch screen software in general, is that it can always be updated. So in the future I am sure there will be more added to DP.
Hope this helps...
side note: When I bought my first Raven for $2800 from GCpro about 2 and half years ago, there was about half the functionality as there is now. Originally there was no "internal mixer" for pro tools, no batch commands, no recording mouse clicks, no saving batch panels, no iOS remote, no latching multiple modifier keys, the list goes on and on... Still back then I had a blast on the Raven, it saved my hands from carpel tunnel, my clients loved it, and I could finally tweak plugins and mix how I used to in the "Analog days" by just reaching out and touching the EQ and Faders....
P.S I had my Raven for a year before starting to work for Slate, so I feel I can be objective in my opinion.
see video below of where the software was at.. Its pretty funny looking..
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Post by gravityjim on Feb 21, 2016 9:58:52 GMT -8
Thanks, for the weekend reply, dude! I understand, and your explanation is pretty much what I expected. I may buy and try the Logic version just to see if it "feels" better.
And to be fair, that old one may be funny-looking, but it looks hella functional.
BTW... in DP 9 as I'm using it now, the mixer does not resize itself with every insert. I have five blank inserts at the top of each channel, and the mixer stays the same size as I fill those slots.
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Post by waxman on Feb 21, 2016 12:20:45 GMT -8
Thanks Jim... we do need to see DP updated. I am posting on Motunation what I think could be fixes. I will also add to Gearslutz... It seems the Raven has the potential to do it all in DP and be a great and COMPLETE user experience. PS... I just popped over here to see if I can get the remote iPad app working. It's coming up but not working.
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Post by jameyz on Feb 21, 2016 13:48:39 GMT -8
Thanks Jim... we do need to see DP updated. I am posting on Motunation what I think could be fixes. I will also add to Gearslutz... It seems the Raven has the potential to do it all in DP and be a great and COMPLETE user experience. PS... I just popped over here to see if I can get the remote iPad app working. It's coming up but not working. Try loading your Ravlay while the iOS is open, or try pressing "restore factory default".. You can post you fixes on GS, but the best place to post your fixes is gonna be on a support ticket, this way its in the system and we can keep track. thanks!!
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Post by jameyz on Feb 21, 2016 14:29:02 GMT -8
BTW... in DP 9 as I'm using it now, the mixer does not resize itself with every insert. I have five blank inserts at the top of each channel, and the mixer stays the same size as I fill those slots. You are correct DP9 has made things easier with the inserts and sends, but I fear to get the 100mm faders we would have to limit 3 inserts 3 sends, which would not suffice. Also the Sidebars will cause the DP mixer window to resize. This is more about what I meant when I said the mixer re-sizing itself. In Logic there are no Sidebars to come in and out to throw of the mixer. So if we hide the sidebars there are too many DP faders, you can't resize the DP faders like is possible in Logic and Cubase. So since Raven tops out at 24 faders the DP mixer shows about 32. If DP would allow the width of the faders to change that could help. The internal mixer faders would also cut off the input/output selections, which would make it hard to assign those.. I suppose we could have users get rid of those and limit the Inserts and Sends then a internal mixer could work. The DP skins also make it hard to do a Overlay, users would be stuck with the default skin probably. My favorite idea right now, is to just make the floating mixer a little skinnier, so it lines up with the width of the DP faders..
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Post by gravityjim on Feb 21, 2016 14:53:12 GMT -8
At which point, you're not mixing with long faders anymore.
Just had a really odd experience, which I cannot attribute to Raven, although I am running the beta software and that's the only change in my set up recently, so....
Spent a couple of hours recording. Walked away, did household chores for a couple of hours. When I came back, ALL of my 32GB of RAM had been consumed by software that wasn't even running.... some kind of manic process was going on, making it difficult to even force quit anything because the mouse would barely move then skip wildly (frozen by a background process)... I finally just held down the power button to shut down.
Memory leak in Raven beta, maybe? I have no way of knowing (the machine was too back to get Activity Monitor open), so it's totally a wild guess, but I've never seen that happen before.
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Post by waxman on Feb 21, 2016 22:15:10 GMT -8
Hi Jamey I ported this over from Motunation. Thanks for the ios tip for Batch Commander. I also found it on the support site and it worked great. For the Raven to be a better experience I would love to see the Raven stay in vertical alignment with DP when banking 24 channels at a time on the floating mixer. It does not need to be set up in overlay template like Logic or PT. Adding automation to the Raven button instead of the current blue INS button would be good. That gets us back the solo/rec/mute/auto section of the DP mixer taking get back some valuable real estate for more inserts and auxes. The alternative is I am finding I can use the DP buttons to arm record mute solo etc. In that case just having the PAN and fader is fine. However I prefer the larger buttons on the RAVEN. An added pan and automation section (along with the existing solo, rec and mute on the Raven) would allow us to bail on the DP pan knob (which is to small for touch screen) and the s/m/r/a DP section. When I mix I am constantly going between the upper mixer section and the faders. Once all the work is done and nothing but fader levels and automation is needed kicking in the big mixer and 100mm faders is great. I am finding I can mix on the floating mixer and it works great. Here are the facts: Mackie protocol can bank 32 channels. (But 24 is probably better giving some border room on the Raven.) You can see in the pic dp is scaled to do 32 channels on the width of the Raven screen and the Raven is scaled for 24 channels. Raven channel is 3/4"... DP channel is 9/16"... DP mixer can be configured to the user preference. I'm not sure if different skins change the width on DP. See Pics. All are using the floating Raven MixerRaven Channel is 3/4" (just over) DP Channel is 9/16" Raven at 24 channels and DP at 32 Channels Ruler on screen with Raven Raven 24 ch an DP 24 ch. (Probably best to have some margin on the side) Aligned with cinema display
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Post by waxman on Feb 21, 2016 22:33:29 GMT -8
So JameyZ is it possible to size down the Raven channels to fit with DP? It works great for me like this (pic). It's just not aligned. However it banks fine. If they stay independent the upper part of the DP mixer can be set up to the users liking turning off the faders or any other section. Attachments:
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Post by machinesworking on Feb 22, 2016 0:29:15 GMT -8
BTW... in DP 9 as I'm using it now, the mixer does not resize itself with every insert. I have five blank inserts at the top of each channel, and the mixer stays the same size as I fill those slots. You are correct DP9 has made things easier with the inserts and sends, but I fear to get the 100mm faders we would have to limit 3 inserts 3 sends, which would not suffice. Also the Sidebars will cause the DP mixer window to resize. This is more about what I meant when I said the mixer re-sizing itself. In Logic there are no Sidebars to come in and out to throw of the mixer. So if we hide the sidebars there are too many DP faders, you can't resize the DP faders like is possible in Logic and Cubase. So since Raven tops out at 24 faders the DP mixer shows about 32. If DP would allow the width of the faders to change that could help. The internal mixer faders would also cut off the input/output selections, which would make it hard to assign those.. I suppose we could have users get rid of those and limit the Inserts and Sends then a internal mixer could work. The DP skins also make it hard to do a Overlay, users would be stuck with the default skin probably. My favorite idea right now, is to just make the floating mixer a little skinnier, so it lines up with the width of the DP faders.. Hi Jameyz, The main thing about the Floating Mixer or Overlay is using it in conjunction with other windows, being able to call up plug ins etc. what about this idea? and yes I'm aware that code doesn't magically appear. Since DP is unique interface wise in terms of an overlay that is locked to a screenset just get the width of the floating faders to match the width of DP's mixer, and allow for a basic color palette choice that you can currently use with the batch command buttons for the background of the floating mixer. Just being able to manually position the Floating mixer over the faders in the DP mixer and change the background color to match (more or less) the skin in DP would be enough for me. Mostly when it's time for a serious mix down, I would gravitate towards the Raven Mixer with it's larger size and it's icons, so this would be enough for me during the composing portion of songwriting.
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Post by jameyz on Feb 22, 2016 7:37:40 GMT -8
So JameyZ is it possible to size down the Raven channels to fit with DP? It works great for me like this (pic). It's just not aligned. However it banks fine. If they stay independent the upper part of the DP mixer can be set up to the users liking turning off the faders or any other section. Thanks for all the screenshots, this makes it very helpful. Which DP Skin are you using? When I try banking in the setup you are using with the floating mixer below the regular mixer, my track selector starts getting rid of tracks? Does this happen to you? Probably some type of HUI thing.
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Post by waxman on Feb 22, 2016 7:52:18 GMT -8
So JameyZ is it possible to size down the Raven channels to fit with DP? It works great for me like this (pic). It's just not aligned. However it banks fine. If they stay independent the upper part of the DP mixer can be set up to the users liking turning off the faders or any other section. Thanks for all the screenshots, this makes it very helpful. Which DP Skin are you using? When I try banking in the setup you are using with the floating mixer below the regular mixer, my track selector starts getting rid of tracks? Does this happen to you? Probably some type of HUI thing. Hey Jamey, You are welcome for the screen shots. There is also a discussion going on under General Recording at Motunation. www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60912&start=180DP calls the skin a "Theme". I am using a theme called "Carbon." The banking works with any dp theme and yes it's a Mackie protocol so it must be a hui thing getting rid of tracks. If I have the dp mixer selected it follows right along with with Raven mixer. So is there a chance this channel alignment thing can be solved? Does anyone at Slate use DP?
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Post by waxman on Feb 22, 2016 8:03:05 GMT -8
BTW... IF you just did the Raven Faders (not the r/s/m/ins buttons) the same size as the DP mixer you could just squeeze in 32 channels on the raven. That would be a cool very digital thing and Mackie Protocol banks 32 channels. 24 channels is a holdover from the analog days. I think the 100mm faders would be possible at that point. Every element of the upper end of the DP mixer is an option. You can also turn off auto add inserts and keep the height constant. see red circle. Compare the Logic Pro overlay. I think DP would be better if they were sized correctly. The overlay would not be needed... Attachments:
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Post by jameyz on Feb 22, 2016 8:17:43 GMT -8
Getting rid of the Solo/Mutes does save a lot of space, then you could show 5 inserts and 5 sends.
There are some serious problems with the last 8 faders of HUI so we have to stick with 24.
I used DP all through College, since back in those days it was the only DAW to really handle MIDI and Programming.
Steven is a Cubase guy, and the rest of the guys are Ableton and PT.
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Post by Waxman iPhone on Feb 22, 2016 9:20:09 GMT -8
I am using DP with Mackie Protocol with Raven and DP and it follows perfectly. So HUI is for PT and other DAW's. Good to hear you know DP.
So Jamey what do you think is this channel alignment issue fixable? Can you add 24 channel fader only or maybe fader and a bit smaller pan. The DP mixer button are big enough to use on the Raven so all we need is the proper width faders. We align the rest no template needed. It would be so cool.
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Post by waxman on Feb 23, 2016 9:01:00 GMT -8
By the way I could not find the login to the support site from my iPhone. Is it there?
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Post by jameyz on Feb 23, 2016 10:46:52 GMT -8
I have never tried from the iPhone... Will take a look..
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Post by waxman on Feb 23, 2016 19:19:02 GMT -8
I have never tried from the iPhone... Will take a look.. Thanks Jamey it would be convenient at times to post from iPhone... So Jamey? ? What do you think is this channel alignment issue fixable? Can you add a 24 channel fader only or maybe fader and a bit smaller pan. The other option is the R/M/S buttons and a automation engage button. The DP mixer buttons are big enough to use on the Raven so all we need is the proper width faders. On DP it's easy to align the rest so no template needed. It would be so cool. So JameyZ... What say you? Can you ask the great Oracle and the powers that be at Slate Digital if there is anyway on Gods green earth this will happen?
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Post by waxman on Feb 23, 2016 20:27:45 GMT -8
If Slate will reduce the size of it's channels in the floating mixer to 9/16" it will line up with with DP. Logic Pro X is 11/16". The width of the Raven floating mixer in DP currently is 13/16" DP 9/16" Logic Pro X 11/16 Raven currently in DP is 13/16"
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Post by jameyz on Feb 24, 2016 11:01:13 GMT -8
DP 9.2 fixed the "floating" plugin settings, so now the INS button will open the 1st plugin on the track and will open above the Mixer, unlike before where the plugin would hide behind the External Mixer. In the video I used some BCs to scroll through the Inserts once a plugin is open..
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